ext_148708 ([identity profile] wantsyourzex.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] damned_bulletin2008-12-03 04:36 pm

[written very carefully with small letters]

Were you killed before you came here?

Were you in mortal danger before you woke up here?


If you were returned to your home, would you return to a dead body?

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
My situation wasn't exactly one of 'mortal danger', though I was in danger of losing myself in a way, I wasn't in a position where I would have been considered 'dead' or otherwise.

However, it is my personal theory (and one I've noticed shared by others around the place) that our consciousnesses have been 'copied' and transferred to other bodies here. If this is the case, the 'original' would still be continuing on in your home dimension unaware of your existence. In that case, leaving this facility and dimension would have no effect on your current form, unfortunately.

But there is always the possibility that my theory is incorrect, or that I have overlooked something vital. And should my theory prove to be accurate, then it is equally possible to create for those of us in human bodies new bodies of our natural species and to initiate a similar transfer into those. It is something that has been shown possible with my people's technology, so I should easily be able to duplicate it.

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
If you leave, then there would simply be two people with essentially the same personality and past with only minor differences. It would only be a case of one 'normal' you and one 'human' you. The copy of consciousness is perfectly stable, so there would be no 'replacing' of each other should you eventually leave.

Think of it like... making an exact copy of a piece of paper, then sending it to someone else. Should that person return the paper to you, it doesn't merge or replace the original, you simply have two pieces of paper that are essentially the same, though there may be minor differences due to their 'experiences'.

Understandably this theory raises other problems, specifically for those of us who were in no danger of death before arriving here, as most beings do not take kindly to there being copies of themselves around. But if you had died then you would be the only one of yourself which might make the process simpler.

The technology exists and my people, and my ancestor, have had much experience with it, so it would be simple enough for me to replicate it. The only difficulty is that I am without my natural tools or any decent resources.

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 03:45 am (UTC)(link)
I fail to see how being a copy impacts the significance of your existence at all. I myself have created back-up copies of my consciousness on several occasions in the case of extreme damage or death. Yes other copies can be made, just as other humans are born or otherwise created to replace those who die. For example, if you clone someone, the clone is not simply a replacement for the original, but unique in their own way. Copying your consciousness is hardly going to make you any less 'real' or valid.

The only issue I can see with the matter is that the process results in there being two or possibly more versions of the same individual around, but in that case it should be possible for some sort of understanding to be worked out. It hardly warrants this level of concern either way.

Not to mention that it would seem your situation is the ideal; if you have reasonable proof that you would be dead in your home dimension, then most of your concerns are null and void. You could simply do as you liked, as there would be no other 'you' for you to be worried about 'replacing'.

Again, I see no reason this process could be considered as going against the 'natural order' of things, assuming there even is a natural order. It would simply be the same as if I had cloned your original body and transferred a copy of your mind into it after your death. The 'original' may still be dead, but you are alive regardless and can continue to live and change. How is this a problem or unnatural?

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 06:00 am (UTC)(link)
Why shouldn't the consciousness be able to be copied and recreated? In a purely scientific sense, it is only the result of complex interactions of chemicals and electrical impulses; there's no inherently 'spiritual' aspects to it.

Besides, copying someone's consciousness does not make them or the copy any less individual. While their pasts and basic personality traits may be identical, the process of learning and developing will cause both of them to become different as time passes. Surely these theories are not unusual to you, if your people have had any experience with alternate dimensions or cloning theory; even humanity in its current stage has contemplated these ideas.

While creating a copy of one's consciousness is possible, and has been done several times in the past, altering memories or personality traits is rather more difficult. The complex interactions of memory often mean that major changes, such as causing someone to believe that they are a completely different person or species than they actually are, are more easily detected by the mind. So, if you're worried that somehow you've been altered into believing you're something you're not, then I would say that its highly unlikely.

I highly doubt that any vaunted 'natural order' is going to cause you to cease to exist, however. And even if you are a clone, you're a unique individual now. Claiming that those who were created from the use of cloning technology, or that would not be here if it were not for the ability to create a backup of our consciousness (and I include myself in the latter) are merely shadows of the original is insulting, much in the same way that people assume that as I am mostly cybernetic, I must be a robot and not a 'real' person. Or in the case of my own people, who consider me 'flawed' for desiring to understand more about other races.

However... [here the writing becomes more hesitant, like he's uncertain if he should continue or leave it at that] as a close friend once told me... We all know, deep down, who and what we are. It's important to hold onto that, despite the... difficulties that may arise.

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 01:08 pm (UTC)(link)
It would seem that one issue is indeed a difference in our basic opinions, yes. And to be honest, I'm not certain if it is possible for me to say anything that will offer you any kind of... help on the matter.

From my perspective, while you may or may not be dead in your own reality, you're here and alive now, so wasting time worrying about the metaphysical implications now is just pointless. And should you be correct and you are in fact dead, then who is to say that this is not simply a second chance, that you can't reap some benefit from this situation?

However from your perspective, you clearly feel your concerns are justified and need to be dealt with quickly.

The fact of the matter is, there is nothing I can say or promise that will help you with your problem. We don't know enough about how and why we were brought here nor what would happen for certain should we find a way to return. I can share with you my theories on the matter, but the fact is that they are theories and untested.

So while I would like to be able to tell you what will happen for certain, I cannot. You will have to find the answer you seek on your own.

[identity profile] udo-retrovirus.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
That's an interesting theory, and it would definitely explain how this place seems to exist outside of time. Where I'm from, though, we may be pretty advanced compared to this, but we still can't achieve that. It's theoretically possible to revive the consciousness of the dead, but the consciousness changes depending on what vessel it's housed in, so they're technically not the same person. If this is what they're doing, then are you sure that you're the same person you think?

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 03:55 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not surprised that you can't achieve these things, as my people are, to my knowledge, the only ones to have this technology in my dimension and they prefer to keep it that way. However it's possible that the changes are related to the presumably organic nature of those you are 'reviving' and the 'vessels' being used. My people are largely cybernetic, so the process is simpler and completely flawless.

Of course I am the same person. I've had reason in the past to create backups of my own consciousness in case of emergencies, so I am hardly unfamiliar with the process. Besides, considering a number of people here claim to know each other from before, but do not note any significant changes, it would appear that whoever is behind bringing us here not only has the technology needed to perform such transfers, but has also perfected it to be used on organic beings.

[identity profile] udo-retrovirus.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 04:58 am (UTC)(link)
When consciousnesses are transferred, it's usually the consciousness of a formerly organic being into a cybernetic body. I'm not a scientist, so I still don't really get it, but it's like the consciousness that develops starts from a model of the old one. At the same time, though, those models continue to exist in the new being's subconscious.

Maybe it just has something to do with the way our bodies are built, more than the other?

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 05:34 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm, I find your explanation a little confusing; why wouldn't the new being's consciousness continue to grow and change on its own? Being cybernetic in no way limits your ability to learn and change.

[identity profile] udo-retrovirus.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
I've got a few friends who are kinda like that, so believe me, I know. I was just kind of trying to figure out why the consciousness changes into something entirely different, and thought that since your people perfected it, you might have an idea.

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
Perhaps if you gave me a more specific idea of the changes shown? My people have had this technology for generations, so any problems would have been dealt with some time ago.

((Anonymous as always))

[identity profile] intoindra.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Tell me about this technology you have? In my world we had something similar, though it relied on using... non-repeatable means in order to accomplish the goal. If there's a way to return people to their proper bodies, that might be an advantage worth taking.

[identity profile] emotionl4arobot.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
As I've commented previously, while it would be a simple matter for me to recreate the technology needed and even to advance it enough to be certain that it would work and be able to return everyone to their correct forms without any errors in the data; I simply do not have the resources or tools to do so at this point in time. I'd need much more advanced technology than is currently available to me and even if I should somehow regain the technology of my original form, I would still need time and knowledge of how it was achieved in the first place.