damned_bulletin | [written very carefully with small letters]

[written very carefully with small letters]

Were you killed before you came here?

Were you in mortal danger before you woke up here?

If you were returned to your home, would you return to a dead body?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If you leave, then there would simply be two people with essentially the same personality and past with only minor differences. It would only be a case of one 'normal' you and one 'human' you. The copy of consciousness is perfectly stable, so there would be no 'replacing' of each other should you eventually leave.

Think of it like... making an exact copy of a piece of paper, then sending it to someone else. Should that person return the paper to you, it doesn't merge or replace the original, you simply have two pieces of paper that are essentially the same, though there may be minor differences due to their 'experiences'.

Understandably this theory raises other problems, specifically for those of us who were in no danger of death before arriving here, as most beings do not take kindly to there being copies of themselves around. But if you had died then you would be the only one of yourself which might make the process simpler.

The technology exists and my people, and my ancestor, have had much experience with it, so it would be simple enough for me to replicate it. The only difficulty is that I am without my natural tools or any decent resources.

Duplication of so many people on such a vast scale seems completely impossible to me... and it raises a surprising amount of ethical questions as well. If we are going with your analogy of copying pieces of paper, then that means that those of us here are "copies" of the original existing person... if that is the case, then what real significance do we have? Surely other copies can be made... and if we did return home, then what place do we have in the world we left, particularly if the original still exists? Is the original's life our life anymore? Who has proper claim to it? As a copy of an original, we are inherently without a proper place anymore, given that that place is either occupied by the original or...

If we have been physically taken from our world, then if one died, there would be no body to encounter. If we have been copied from an original source, we'd come back to find our own dead body... I feel this should raise some metaphysical paradoxes of some kind. Something like that seems like it would deliberately be going against the natural order of things, perhaps even the laws of physics itself... essentially creating matter from nothing. But again, duplication of matter is not possible as far as I'm aware. Perhaps things are different here somehow...

I fail to see how being a copy impacts the significance of your existence at all. I myself have created back-up copies of my consciousness on several occasions in the case of extreme damage or death. Yes other copies can be made, just as other humans are born or otherwise created to replace those who die. For example, if you clone someone, the clone is not simply a replacement for the original, but unique in their own way. Copying your consciousness is hardly going to make you any less 'real' or valid.

The only issue I can see with the matter is that the process results in there being two or possibly more versions of the same individual around, but in that case it should be possible for some sort of understanding to be worked out. It hardly warrants this level of concern either way.

Not to mention that it would seem your situation is the ideal; if you have reasonable proof that you would be dead in your home dimension, then most of your concerns are null and void. You could simply do as you liked, as there would be no other 'you' for you to be worried about 'replacing'.

Again, I see no reason this process could be considered as going against the 'natural order' of things, assuming there even is a natural order. It would simply be the same as if I had cloned your original body and transferred a copy of your mind into it after your death. The 'original' may still be dead, but you are alive regardless and can continue to live and change. How is this a problem or unnatural?

You describe technology that seems wholly impossible to me... as I understand, one's consciousness is not a tangible thing that can be recreated at will. Individuality is extremely important to me... I find the idea that there is a "copy" of me (that I can be copied) disconcerting on several levels. And if memories and personality can be so easily copied and transferred into new bodies, then there's no guarantee at all that we are who we believe we are... since "we" are a set form of information that can be duplicated from one body to another. If we are a set of instructions and information, then it can be easily altered to have us believe anything, including that we come from different places or times. Memories become worthless. Reality should not be subjective in that way, and I find it worrying. It's important to me to know exactly who I am, and the idea that my memories are not valid complicates that.

My concerns lie primarily if I return to my home, and if the natural order of things exerts itself over my current existence, I may die again. Even if that's not the case, and I have been "copied" somehow, the rest of the people at my world are most likely dead as well, since they haven't shown up here. Not a pleasant prospect.

If I understand your talk of cloning correctly, it's not something that my species is capable of, and even if they were, I think they'd consider it heresy of some sort.
And if I am a clone, it doesn't change the fact that the real me is dead, and that would make me a shadow mimicking a life I should not rightly have because I'd been "programmed" to do so. This idea is upsetting to me.

Why shouldn't the consciousness be able to be copied and recreated? In a purely scientific sense, it is only the result of complex interactions of chemicals and electrical impulses; there's no inherently 'spiritual' aspects to it.

Besides, copying someone's consciousness does not make them or the copy any less individual. While their pasts and basic personality traits may be identical, the process of learning and developing will cause both of them to become different as time passes. Surely these theories are not unusual to you, if your people have had any experience with alternate dimensions or cloning theory; even humanity in its current stage has contemplated these ideas.

While creating a copy of one's consciousness is possible, and has been done several times in the past, altering memories or personality traits is rather more difficult. The complex interactions of memory often mean that major changes, such as causing someone to believe that they are a completely different person or species than they actually are, are more easily detected by the mind. So, if you're worried that somehow you've been altered into believing you're something you're not, then I would say that its highly unlikely.

I highly doubt that any vaunted 'natural order' is going to cause you to cease to exist, however. And even if you are a clone, you're a unique individual now. Claiming that those who were created from the use of cloning technology, or that would not be here if it were not for the ability to create a backup of our consciousness (and I include myself in the latter) are merely shadows of the original is insulting, much in the same way that people assume that as I am mostly cybernetic, I must be a robot and not a 'real' person. Or in the case of my own people, who consider me 'flawed' for desiring to understand more about other races.

However... [here the writing becomes more hesitant, like he's uncertain if he should continue or leave it at that] as a close friend once told me... We all know, deep down, who and what we are. It's important to hold onto that, despite the... difficulties that may arise.

I see we differ here on a fundamental level in how we see consciousness. I'm not sure how to reconcile this.

The problem with this cloning idea to me is not so much the idea of the clones not being individuals, it's that I, personally, would not be who I believe myself to be. I would be, in this case, a replication of who I really am, a fabrication constructed from memories and data. Given that you are cybernetic, this may not be unusual to you, but it is a deeply distasteful idea to me. Again, this may be an area where we simply differ in our belief systems.

You say that my memories being altered is highly unlikely, and I would respond by saying that my sudden incarceration here, and my shift into this body, and the ability of every human in this place to suddenly speak my language, are all highly unlikely. In fact, impossible by my standards (the language problem in particular... humans do not have the ability to speak as VUX do, and yet, that is what I hear and speak). When you put the fabric of reality into question, I have absolutely no guarantee that in the process of shifting me from one body to another that my memories were not altered in some way. One could argue that just changing my body from a VUX to a human would entail altering my memories, so a human mind could access them! If this facility is capable of creating clones, with perfect memories of lives they have not personally lived, I see no reason why those memories could not be altered without our knowledge. After all, how would we know that what we "remember" is false, in which case?

If I insulted you, I apologize, that was not my intent. But I'm not sure if my issue with this concept is clear. If I am a clone, then my memories are, by definition, false, because this body did not experience them. They were given to this body, so it could better emulate my actual existence. If I am a clone of my original body, then my current existence in this body is a complete fabrication by some unknown entity for some unknown purpose. I was created, by something or someone, to specifically be this way. Either way, I am not who I think I am anymore. And I'm still dead.

This may be a fundamental difference in belief between the robotic/cybernetic and organic... in which case I'm not sure how to make my problem with this idea more clear.

I would take comfort in those words, but I'm finding it difficult to know when there's no longer any proof of what I know to be real, and everything I knew as objective has suddenly become subjective. But I suppose that's what this place is trying to accomplish.

It would seem that one issue is indeed a difference in our basic opinions, yes. And to be honest, I'm not certain if it is possible for me to say anything that will offer you any kind of... help on the matter.

From my perspective, while you may or may not be dead in your own reality, you're here and alive now, so wasting time worrying about the metaphysical implications now is just pointless. And should you be correct and you are in fact dead, then who is to say that this is not simply a second chance, that you can't reap some benefit from this situation?

However from your perspective, you clearly feel your concerns are justified and need to be dealt with quickly.

The fact of the matter is, there is nothing I can say or promise that will help you with your problem. We don't know enough about how and why we were brought here nor what would happen for certain should we find a way to return. I can share with you my theories on the matter, but the fact is that they are theories and untested.

So while I would like to be able to tell you what will happen for certain, I cannot. You will have to find the answer you seek on your own.

I wasn't exactly expecting help... just some alternate perspectives on my problem. I find myself doubtful that it has a satisfactory answer unfortunately... but I suppose this is a personal battle I will wage on my own.

Although I do thank you for discussing this with me, it has given me some food for thought.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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